Curse

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 13, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I've been reading quite a few threads about how IWAY needs to be nerfed, it's a n00b build, it's a joke, it can't hold HoH, it's simply for fame farming....

So I decided to see just what is true and what isn't this past weekend.

First, a bit of background so you'll know my POV, and what I was going up against.

I used to play a bit of HoH with a previous guild I was in, but not hardcore. I know the maps, and what relic running is about, and what an altar map entails, so I don't consider myself a beginner. My only handicap is that I haven't done HoH in months, so I haven't played any of the current FOTMs (IWAY, EOE Bomb, Ranger Spike, Necro Spike, etc). I know their basic build theory, but haven't played it personally. I had 155 Fame when I started on Sunday morning, and I wanted to see how long it would take me to get to rank 3 just by joining random PUGs.

If I was able to sneak into a r3++ group, fine, but I wouldn't discuss my rank (or lack of) with anyone, they would take me at face value, or not at all. I rolled up a simple IWAY tank, hopped over to Hero's Ascent (HA) and started to look for groups to farm that fame goodness.

First, a few people on the forums complained how hard it is to get into IWAY groups unless you're ranked. I didn't find this to be an issue. Sure, there were some groups looking specifically for emotes, but all in all, getting into an IWAY team was fairly easy.

My conclusions are - if folks think IWAY needs to be nerfed, they're nuts. It doesn't dominate HoH builds - in fact, I'd say that (as of now) there were many more teams running different builds than IWAY. Perhaps one out of 4-5 teams I faced in my PUGs were also running IWAY. Most of the time, it was Euro teams running balanced, necro spike, or other different builds. Yes, as it was Sunday daytime (not prime time) this may have skewed my results a bit.

There were actually more teams built specifically to STOP IWAY than there was IWAY teams, at least from what I saw.

It took me about 8 hours to gain my measely 25 fame for rank 3 while playing strictly in IWAY PUGs.

I also have never seen so many quitters in my life. I don't think there was one single PUG I was in that didn't have someone quit at some point in the gameplay. I've seen random arena teams stick together longer.

To give some perspective, a friend of mine went into HoH with his guild and farmed about 30 fame in an hour or two while I was slogging though IWAY groups.

My personal thoughts about the build itself - it's not that great. It's popular because it's irritatingly easy to run, and any n00b (myself perhaps included) can jump in and get into a team. It's just not very good against any halfway decent team. I seriously doubt that being rank 3, or 6, or 12 matters. The build itself isn't flexible/dynamic enough to scare anyone that has a halfway decent build and good coordination no matter what rank the IWAY team is. The only thing that is important is having some exposure to the game mechanics itself, how the maps are laid out, what the objectives are, etc. You can pick that up in an afternoon of IWAY play. You may not see the HoH (or the courtyard for that matter) but I'm sure you'll see a multi team map, an altar map and a relic run at least a couple of times in a playing session. Exposure to a few different opposing builds will also happen, so you'll recognize what to look for. So, if you have that, then your rank matters not.

Is IWAY lame? A little bit perhaps, but that can be said about EOE Bomb teams as well (for example). IWAY does fulfill a nice niche in the game - it provides a simple build for beginning PVP players to get exposure to HoH and that's about it. If anyone thinks it's overpowered, you're nuts.

As a way to get back at all those groups looking for rank3+ players...after I got my emote, I spent the next hour running around in the HA Hall joining groups, and if anyone asked me to flash my rank I would - then promptly quit the team. May little way of "sticking it to the man"...

Doomlord_Slayermann · Feb 13, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I think the results you got were highly skewed by the time you chose to play. It is my impression that the IWAY craze is pretty much an American thing. Also, IWAY can be modded into a crapload of different builds (see: anything that MATH plays) and while its basic build does suck/require no skill some of the mods made to it can make for a challenge to your enemies if you can play them right, which does take a good bit of skill.

The Real Roy Keane · Feb 13, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Doomlord, the fact that you were playing with unorganised,unranked IWAY PUGS would explain why you were so underwhelmed by it -trust me, R9+ IWAYS (yes,they do exist) are still terrifying. Just look at the now famous MATH, who dominated the halls and broke into the top 10 guilds with their perfected IWAY, until they finally moved onto something new. That said, Oathshot trappers are becoming very popular, and wards combined with Aegis chains,along with constant Dust Traps, Fertile and Symbiosis, have caused a resurgence in the popularity of good old balanced teams.

The Real Roy Keane · Feb 13, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Doomlord, the fact that you were playing with unorganised,unranked IWAY PUGS would explain why you were so underwhelmed by it -trust me, R9+ IWAYS (yes,they do exist) are still terrifying. Just look at the now famous MATH, who dominated the halls and broke into the top 10 guilds with their perfected IWAY, until they finally moved onto something new. That said, Oathshot trappers are becoming very popular, and wards combined with Aegis chains,along with constant Dust Traps, Fertile and Symbiosis, have caused a resurgence in the popularity of good old balanced teams.

The Real Roy Keane · Feb 13, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Sorry for the double post,and sorry Doomlord,I thought you were the OP.I meant for my post to be addressed to Mimi.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Feb 13, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

Sorry for the double post,and sorry Doomlord,I thought you were the OP.I meant for my post to be addressed to Mimi.

I was wondering why you argued against what I said while agreeing with me lol.

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 13, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Yes, as I noted, the time of day I played probably did have an impact on what I saw.

And yes, I do believe it's pretty much just an American thing, I don't recall any Euro IWAY teams. They seemed to be playing a lot of balanced groups.

And IWAY is just too easily countered. Blind condition renders the entire build worthless. Since there are no monks in the group, there is no condition removal.

I'm not considering any modified IWAY builds, as that isn't what is predominately being played. As I said, I don't think - with the "popular" IWAY build being played - that rank means all that much. I can not state authoratively on top-10 teams using their own versions as I've not seen it.

Any team (just from my personal experience) with a well thought out build can win against any other build or team. It doesn't matter if it's a necro build, a smite build, a ranger spike build, energy denial build, whatever. This doesn't include the cookie cutter IWAY build, because it can be so easily defeated, is so widespread that groups create builds with anti IWAY skills in their bar. I just don't see how IWAY, as it is in itself, is bad. I'd never play it again except for a lark or a quicky faction farm run as I think it's a pretty stupid build. I'd prefer to play in something a tad more challenging and interesting.

But, that's just my limited personal view.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Feb 13, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

But, that's just my limited personal view.

For a more broad view of IWAY mods, watch MATH in the halls or GvG. Their builds are technically not really IWAY as the W/Rs are not really the center of the build anymore.

animeba · Feb 13, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Once you get up to R6+ in IWAY, there isn't that much difference in skill level. R9+ MATH IWAY will still get owned by experienced HA teams. This is the reason why oath shot - spirit spamming teams hold HOH, not IWAY.

MATH got into top 10 guild because they have good players & also because this isn't an offical season. The opponents they faced are laughable. They just let MATH's 2 necro/monks sit back and cast order/heal party again and again. The funniest thing that I saw was MATH rushing straight for an opponents guild lord and finishing it off under 2:00mins flawless.

asdar · Feb 13, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Well, this is definitely a bit skewed. At almost any time someone can get into an IWay, there's no other build that's as easy to get in.

Iway isn't countered by any decent build, that's why it's been around so long. Iway is countered by any build that takes iway into account.

I never play Iway, maybe 3 out of 10 pickup groups I play in are Iway, but I rarely do pickups. With that said I was in an HoH winning Iway on Tues or Wed of this week. Not only did we win once but we were there more than once in not very much play time.

In GvG there are a number of top 50 Iway teams. I watched a non-math team this week that crushed a top 20 team. They ran a mod'd version but recognizable as Iway through the 4 W/R and an orders necro.

It's not obsolete yet, not even the straight IWay, let alone one of the many mods. I wish it was obsolete, because I think it ruins a lot of better builds for the simple reason that nobody works to form a new group.

I'm not asking for a nerf or Iway, I just wish people would get over it and take the time to test out new builds.

art_ · Feb 14, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

We play IWAY in Europe too

Duke Slytalker · Feb 14, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

as far as i see it, ppl need to get over IWAY(i mean stop bashing, not stop playing it). its a decent build that relativly easy to run, however in my experice, that doesnt mean itsa noob build. i use IWAY quite often, and i experimented with several different skill combos, and just like any other build it has its strong points and its week points. What i find really sad is that some ppl hate IWAY so much that they make a build designed only to take it down, or make a N/E and say they're a tainted, then leave after we enter mission saying "IWAY #$@!ing sucks, y would i help it noobs". Dont ppl have anything better to do then bash IWAY?

And as far as ppl claiming its cheap, check out EoE bomb. lets not forget the cheapest thing of all, ppl making a guild and getting to rank 5000 and then going into halls to make ppl think they suck, then after they've won they go around using their tiger emotes, if ur good, then dont pretend like u arent. And ppl claiming its too powerfull, i'd much rather face a IWAY group than a half way decent ranger spiker group. I think alot of the ppl saying the "its a cheap noob build, a blind monkey could run it" are just mad because they got beat by an IWAY team and had their ego bruised

When ppl beat an IWAY team they r apt to say soemhting like "thats what u get for playing IWAY u [email protected] noob, IWAY sucks". but if they lose they say soemthing like "we only lost cuz ur f&%king IWAY, its a n00b build that anyone can run" ppl make too many excuses for their own short-comings and flaws.

just my 2 cents

~Duke~

yesitsrob · Feb 14, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

with iway, you're either going to steam roll someone and win fast - or get steam rolled yourself and lose fast... so if you lose, jump back in. I don't play it myself, and I do grow tired of facing it over and over again, but it is probably the most efficient fame farmer there is, and as long as it is it's going to be played a lot.

It's not a crap build, if it was everyone and their mother wouldn't be playing it, it's actually a build that allows even a pretty crap team to take down a team that is a bit better than them.

Personally I'm seeing a lot of surge mesmer, 2 w/e, warder type builds as they tend to beat iway convingly... and then there's the current flavor of builds that are dedicated to holding, eg. the necro/monk blood spike thing, which is extremely hard to beat when it's holding.. which again is about fame in the long run, the more you hold, the more fame you get for each win after

Quote:

And as far as ppl claiming its cheap, check out EoE bomb. lets not forget the cheapest thing of all, ppl making a guild and getting to rank 5000 and then going into halls to make ppl think they suck, then after they've won they go around using their tiger emotes

I really don't see how that is cheap at all - why would a guilds rank make you change the way you play? And there's relatively few guilds that actually do that, and they are well known enough in tombs for people to not fall for that...

and eoe bomb is so insanely easy to spot and prevent.. i can't really imangine getting more than 2 wins on a row with it

Rilder · Feb 14, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke Slytalker

as far as i see it, ppl need to get over IWAY(i mean stop bashing, not stop playing it). its a decent build that relativly easy to run, however in my experice, that doesnt mean itsa noob build. i use IWAY quite often, and i experimented with several different skill combos, and just like any other build it has its strong points and its week points. What i find really sad is that some ppl hate IWAY so much that they make a build designed only to take it down, or make a N/E and say they're a tainted, then leave after we enter mission saying "IWAY #$@!ing sucks, y would i help it noobs". Dont ppl have anything better to do then bash IWAY?

And as far as ppl claiming its cheap, check out EoE bomb. lets not forget the cheapest thing of all, ppl making a guild and getting to rank 5000 and then going into halls to make ppl think they suck, then after they've won they go around using their tiger emotes, if ur good, then dont pretend like u arent. And ppl claiming its too powerfull, i'd much rather face a IWAY group than a half way decent ranger spiker group. I think alot of the ppl saying the "its a cheap noob build, a blind monkey could run it" are just mad because they got beat by an IWAY team and had their ego bruised

When ppl beat an IWAY team they r apt to say soemhting like "thats what u get for playing IWAY u [email protected] noob, IWAY sucks". but if they lose they say soemthing like "we only lost cuz ur f&%king IWAY, its a n00b build that anyone can run" ppl make too many excuses for their own short-comings and flaws.

just my 2 cents

~Duke~

Exactly, and with all this complaining IWAYS gonna get nerfed then the craze will be gone then a new build will hold the halls for more then 2 battles and then everyone will start spamming on how that build is a "n00bzor build" and that "d00d our 1337 build got beat by this n00b build NERF IT NERF IT"